Question 4: Some scholars have presented Jesus as a political revolutionary. What are the strengths and weaknesses of this portrait?
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
I don't think Jesus saw himself as a political revolutionary. He had a mission and never allowed himself to be distracted from it. However, in terms of how the people viewed Him and how the religious/political scene was influenced by His teaching, it may be fair to say he was somewhat of a political revolutionary.
I think perhaps it was more God the Father who was the political revolutionary. He providentially prepared the way, manipulating the political scene to create an environment conducive to the spread of the Gospel after Jesus' death.
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
I agree with you Jenny.
Jesus could have easily achieved political/national independence if he wanted to - after all, he is Creator of the whole universe! But clearly Jesus agenda was not the reinstatement of the Israelite Kingdom centred in Jerusalem.
Jesus plan was for a much more far reaching kingdom. John records him saying "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." (John 18:36). Jesus intention was to set up a kingdom which transcended geography, nationality, gender, culture, race etc
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
I agree with both of you Jenny and Jeff, Jesus was not political in our sense.
I have just been readin Mark and I think Jesus often silences those around him from talking about him because he wants to define what his role and identity are himself. Maybe a bit off the topic??
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
Those of us participating in this particular conversation (so far), seem to agree, that certainly in terms of how Jesus viewed himself, he was not a political revolutionary. However, Jesus was revolutionary in the sense that he worked to bring about a very radical upheaval in society. Jesus' teachings were directed towards bringing about the Kingdom of God. The political implications of proclaiming Jesus as Lord, is that Ceasar is not!
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
i think maybe jesus was a bit revolutionary in the fact that he was proclaiming a new kingdom the "kingdom of God". calling people to repent and believe
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
Its worth noting here that apparently, A revolutionary was exactly what Judas was hoping to see in Jesus. I learnt somewhere in my distant past that the main reason Judas sold Jesus out was to try to force his hand and get him to take Jerusalem by storm and kick those pesky Romans out. (Hence the turning up with a pile of armed men the night he betrayed Jesus.)
It seems Judas' suicide was because of what he perceived as a failed coup against the Romans.
Can anyone validate this story for me?
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
This isn't biblical but in Jesus Christ Superstar- the musical, Judas is presented as very frustrated by the manner Jesus seems to be going about his business so maybe Dave part of that idea came from there?
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
That could well be, Kate. But even the writer of the JCSS script may have drawn his thoughts from something he gleaned from the bible.
Trying to keep this line of thinking with the original question, it makes sense to me that Judas could well have been looking to Jesus as an all conquering Messiah that was going to put Israel at the top of the world.
The writers of the Old Testament were quite willing to expose the failings of their key people in full living colour, but we do not see that so much in the New Testament.
If Judas was a political revolutionary at heart, was it because of the potential for instability in that era that caused such scant details of Judas to be presented in the Gospels?
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
If a revolutionary is simply someone who supports and works towards rapid and drastic change (does it have to be by violent means? ie can a pacifist be a revolutionary eg. Ghandi?), and if politics and religion (in Jesus' time), were so intertwined as to be almost indiscernable as separate entities, then perhaps we could describe Jesus as a political revolutionary.
David, the idea of Judas wanting to force Jesus' hand was certainly depicted in Jesus Christ Superstar and seems to have become an accepted theory of Judas' betrayal, but I'm not sure there's any biblical basis for that. The only thing we glean from the Bible about the character of Judas is that he was a thief and he loved money. I think he just sold Jesus out.
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
I have a question ... People often say that many Jews didn't believe Jesus was the messiah because he wasn't what they expected, they were expecting a warrior of sorts. While I can see where this would come from given he came to save them, can some one actually point me to where this idea is in the bible? Thanks
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
I have found it interesting reading through everyone's comments on whether Jesus was a political revolutionary. While it appears that his life on earth was transforming for the world at the time and the present times, for some reason it doesn't sit well for me to think of Jesus as a political revolutionary, because that was not his reason for coming into the world. I guess I find it hard to view him in any other way than as the Messiah, and a King whose ONLY purpose was to save the world from sin.
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
Not sure that I'm adding too much new to the topic but I'll throw my 2 cents in.
I haven't read anymore than the notes in the folder at this stage but I wonder if the whole idea of Jesus being political revolutionary, or not a revolutionary, still stems from our post-modern western world mindset that makes it difficult to perceive Jesus as a political figure.
I think Jenny put it well when she suggested ".. politics and religion were so intertwined as to be almost indiscernible as separate entities".
Our government doesn't make any claims to be God, although other governments may hint at something like this. e.g. Communist regimes that prohibit any kind of faith/religion. China's Chairman Mao comes to mind. To a government that makes this kind of stipulation (and a people living under that govt). Jesus most certainly would be a political revolutionary. But to our secular culture, and similar thinking cultures, He's just another religious/faith option. (and still again to believers, He's the son of God.
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
Religion is certainly political, because it is a human organisation. But was Jesus into religion?
I agree that he was a revolutionary, but perhaps not a religious revolutionary. He deliberately avoided the Jewish agenda to achieve an independent theocracy, and instead taught about a kingdom "not of this world" (eg John 18:36). Some would argue that christianity went downhill when it became the state religion...
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
I want to respond to and agree with Clare's comment. Quite cleary the gospels show the purpose of Jesus' life on earth was to save us from our sins. He does not form an army or run for government. In fact at times, he resists crowds and people telling others about him on their terms.
At the same time because he entered time and history he must bump into the social structures. To again refer to Jesus Christ Superstar, the show seems to depict Jesus as sort of oblivious to the fuss around him. However, the bible depicts Jesus as having a sharp understanding of society around him. For example, when he refers to Herod as "that fox". Another example is that he is aware of the tax system and has a thought out comment on that.
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
I’ll throw some thoughts in…
I found it interesting in the audio when Jesus proclaims the kingdom of God is coming ( Mark 1) that Jesus could have been responding to society ( particularly Jewish) around him. The message to believe and repent to receive salvation could have been more pointed in its’ meaning, a message to the different Jewish groups to repent of their agenda in bringing about God’s kingdom. It was not the political agendas of strict observance to the law, use of the sword, or collaboration with the Romans that would bring God’s favour and salvation. God's kingdom was coming and he was choosing to make it happen through Jesus. it was nothing they could do to bring about God’s kingdom. It was happening and they needed to listen and trust the way God was doing this. It would have been a huge change of mindset for a people who were all about “doing” to be told they couldn’t “do” anything to be saved anymore. If this was so then Jesus agenda certainly did have political ramifications for the Jewish people..
Plus if the Jews were not waiting for an eternal salvation (were they???) but were thinking more about salvation, freedom and independence from Rome’s clutches then this adds to the political aspects of Jesus message. They didn’t understand it was not Rome’s clutches they needed to be free from but sins grip over them.
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
Some scholars have presented Jesus as a political revolutionary. What are the strengths and weaknesses of this portrait?
He could be seen as a political revolutionary as he was challenging the rigid mindset of both the political and religious leaders. In some cases a spiritual leader can also end up being a political leader eg. Gandhi in more modern times. Whether or not this view has a strength or weakness, Jesus did stir the leaders and people by presenting a different kingdom.
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
One of the disadvantages of posting late in the day is you get the dubious role of the class parrot on some points...However...
Whilst I definitely am persuaded that Jesus was a 'revolutionary', i don't think that can extent to a political revolutionary label, at least by todays understandings.
I do however, agree that as previously posted that God the Father was 'political revolutionary' in how he brought about through his sovereign control a specific set of circumstances at a specific point in history that would allow Christ and the imagery and proclamations such as the 'Kingdom of God' would have tangible understanding amongst the John and Joe citizens in a Hellenised expanding Roman Empire. Knowing a few hundred years later that a bloke called Constantine was coming along probably helped in the planning process.
Jesus on the other hand at a specific mission not swayed by political considerations, and even at times seemed to question the legitimacy of undue focus on 'political liberation' from Roman subjugation rather than his Kingdom (I am unsure if give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's has any application here?)
I can understand that for secular historians a view that presents Jesus as a seditious political religious figure at a time of much intrigue and maneourings, can be of interest if Christ's words are at this time not ones of personal conviction
Re: Qu 4 Historical, religious and political context of Palestine in the Roman Empire
Sorry Im posting so late!
Someone in one of the other questions pointed out that because of the Roman rule and the discontent of the Jewish people Jesus found himself in a "heated political environment" perhaps this is partly why he has at times been labelled as a political revolutionary? As I've been reading religion played a very big role in politics and Jesus was bringing lots of insight into the OT laws many of the groups followed (even with their differences)...
